Rover 3-Litre. A blend of value and expense

I'm told by someone who knows these things that all Ferrari leak. I wasn't expecting the Rover to though. The window rubbers on the front and rear screens were totally shot, with the result that in a heavy downpour, anyone sitting anywhere on the back seat would get very wet hair, and the driver would need to keep the water from running onto the instrument binnacle by holding various cloths against the top of the screen.

Kind of funny looking back, but a bit impractical when heading into Melbourne's wet season. So I took myself off to Scot's Old Auto Rubber and got a front and rear seal for less than $200. All going well I thought, casually asking Scott if I just called up the 24 hour windscreen people to fix it in. After all, 'tis what I had done for the Marina...

Scott's reaction was fairly extreme - an emphatic "NO". Now Scott has years of Rover experience, including P5's, so I listened carefully. He explained that windscreen rubbers on a Rover P5 is a specialist job, and there was only one person in Melbourne who would be able to do the job properly. Pete.

I rang Pete. Eventually he was able to squeeze me in - unfortunately I had called during the Melbourne Grand Prix build-up, one of his busiest times.

The Rover screens were fitted by hand, usually by two blokes (one on either side of the production line). P5s were largely hand built. The windscreen rubbers are screwed in! Each of the many self-tapping screws holds a plate. There are lugs on the plate that hold the stainless steel window trim.

The plates are not all the same, and not necessarily used uniformly by each of the two car assembly chaps. Given that 45 years of movement, vibration and so-on has happened since the car was built, it is quite important to get each screw and each plate back in the same hole and position.

It took Pete (who knew exactly what he was doing) half a day to take the two screens out. This is the pile of disintegrated rubber...

You can also see a sheet of cardboard on the table with each screw and plate attached in the 'in-screen' positions, so that each could be returned to the right place.

and a day and a half to put them back - a week later...

Bear in mind that the production process meant that the self-tapping screws were screwed in after the body shell had been painted, so once the screen rubbers start to let water in, it can eat away at raw, unprotected metal as it works round the screw-threads. Normally (Pete tells me) on a P5, once the screen is removed, the metal supporting it tends to disintegrate straight away, leaving nothing to put the screen back into. The result is some awkward and expensive bodywork reconstruction.

Mine, bless it, was not like this with only surface rust at both ends - which I scrubbed back, rust-converted and then primered and painted for the new rubbers.

Pete took away the screens and rubbers to give them the necessary week to adapt to each other.

I started the scrubbing and painting job. The end result was very satisfying, if you don't count the various points of over-spray. In the end, I also bought a new screen as the original had a few chips and was also 'toughened' rather than laminated.

Now that it is done, it is great to be able to drive in the rain without worrying about leaks.

Next challenge is to try and work out the adjustment on the windscreen wipers - because they are no longer doing the greatest of jobs. Overall, I spent $1,100, on the rubbers, new screen and Pete's labour. The fact that the car has always been garaged saved me thousands in body repairs, which I am very pleased about.

Had my car been one of those leaking Ferraris, I might have been shelling out $15,000 just for the screen - but a more earthy comparison is the trusty old (not hand-built) Leyland Marina. New screen, second hand rubber (which I cleaned up) and fitting - all for $210.

I still think, for what it is, the Rover is great value...

Shock News Flash - Marina Suspension is 'OK'!

Well after staring for some time at the bizarre suspension set-up at the front end of my trusty but bouncy Marina - I gave up and took it to Pickards in Melbourne - specialist in old British Cars.

As luck would have it, they have an Adrian, from Yorkshire, who has owned a couple of Marinas in his past. I now know it has torsion bar front suspension - although I still don't know how it works.

Adrian spent an hour and a half checking out the suspension and my horrible brakes.

Turns out one of my rear brake cylinders is leaking, rendering the off-side rear drum too slippery to be effective - so 3 brakes only eh? No wonder I was having problems.

But the suspension is 'OK'. It isn't the supension that is the problem, but the soon to disintegrate steering rack. Rather glad I had it checked, as I do quite a lot of freeway driving in the Marina...

So, the hunt is on for a steering rack (not too fruitful at the moment) - or a reconditioning service (easier to get, but possibly more expensive).

A-N-D-d-d, I fixed the wipers (I think). Was easy. Replaced them with some that are not worn out. Clever huh?

Now I have to wait until it rains heavily again to see if they work properly. At least I'll be able to see the crash barrier clearly as my steering rack disintegrates...

I'm thinking of having red lines done on the tyres - like the 70's Bathurst racers. Because I can.

More Time-warp driving. 1964 Rover 3-Litre

I knew I wanted a Rover. Back in the early 90s, I had two. A Rover P4 110 and a Rover P6 3500s. Loved them. So once I started driving the Marina, having got rid of my 'normal' car - it was time to get another Rover. After a P4 and aP6, it seemed logical to get a P5.

So I called the Australian Rover club. They were really good, and after a bit of pondering they put me on to a member who was considering selling his P5.

After a bit of a look and a try, I returned home to think about it. Didn't take long and the next weekend I picked it up.

So - what is it like? In its day (1963) it was described as a "poor man's Bentley". What that seems to have meant, is that you get a decent-sized, very heavy, hugely over-engineered, sedate, comfortable and quite opulent car that seems quite disdainful of traffic, convention, ergonomics and bumps in the road - all for a fraction of the cost of a contemporary Bentley - both then and now. Bear in mind that in those days, a Bentley was a badge-engineered Rolls-Royce for a bit less money. Still more expensive than most of our houses though. Actually, given that I can't imagine this blog ever being very mainstream, probably cost more than ALL of our houses...

One of the interesting things about the P5 was that when it was launched it had no competitors. Jag Mk9's cost more, Daimlers cost a lot more and it took Humber and Austin/Van denPlas some time to bring out their comparable cars.

It is a magnificent car to drive. The driver's seat is a very evocative place to sit - and from my perspective that counts for a lot. The windscreen is quite upright compared to more modern cars and the bonnet seems very long and stately. For its age, it is quite a quiet car, although it does have a bit of a rumble and loud hum (non-standard exhaust on mine) once you get over 80kph. The dashboard is wooden. SO are the door window frames. BIG chunks of wood - not light veneer.

The steering wheel is about as wide as your shoulders, with a big chrome horn rim. There is even a full length shelf under the dash. Mine is an auto, which makes it even slower. Keeps up with traffic ok and I have seen 85mph (137kph) on the freeway with more to go - but out of respect for a very old car (and my license) I don't generally do it.

(This isn't a picture of my car - but is very similar - I borrowed it from the web. Mine has a bench front seat - just wanted you to see what the driver sees when getting in...)

So far, I have had the window seals replaced front and rear (a huge, expensive, specialist job - more on that in another post) a new front screen - laminated - the old one was just 'toughened' and quite chipped, a full 'top-end' fettle and had an expert diagnosis of the auto transmission.

My Rover is quite tatty. The driver's door has been caught on a hoist and bent backwards, snapping the door stay. The door is quite serviceable, but the outer panel is creased in a place that will be hard to fix - I'll probably get a second-hand door. The paint is quite patchy. The interior simply needs re-doing - all of it, and apparently it needs a full service to the Borg-Warner DG Auto Transmission - a job that will cost almost as much as I paid for the car. For now, I'll put up with the leaks.

On the plus side, Australia is relatively kind to cars and it has a very good body and a very good engine. All of the rest of the running gear is in great condition. Oh - and I love driving it. When I bought it it had done less than 45,000 miles across 3 previous owners. The mileage is genuine. For the first 10 years it was a chauffeur-driven Government car in NSW - and it has spent most of its life under cover, but being driven just regularly enough to stay running.

I have done about 3,000 miles in it since. It keeps up with traffic, and I often find myself passing things - although it is probably too heavy and slow for sudden last-minute overtaking maneuvers. Once it has its head of steam up though, it feels quite unstoppable.

Officially it does about 17-18 mpg, which is (oddly) about 16-17 l/100km on straight unleaded premium. Apparently lead replacement additive is a bad thing for the older Rovers, Bentleys and so on, but premium is a good thing, because it combusts at a lower temperature than regular (important in when our summers can get up to 49'C).  I have a sense that mine is probably more thhirsty than that

I think it needs a bit of an electrical overhaul at some point. Minor odd things happen, like the indicators deciding not to flash for 15 minutes, then starting again, and the sidelights coming on several seconds after they have been switched on.

At least the heater works (unlike the Marina). Even with the patchy paint, it does have a deep lustrous gleam when properly polished - which only takes about an hour and is really, really worth it.

Marina - the Good Points

You may think (from reading other of my Marina posts) that I am some kind of automotive masochist. I'm not - I just really enjoy driving old cars. I find it almost a spiritual experience to take on a road or a journey in a car that has very discernible limits in terms of performance, handling, braking etc - because it requires so much more attention, foresight, planning and (dare I say) skill.Especially if (for no real reason) you decide to hustle a bit.

The journey becomes an achievement, in the same way as walking up a mountain does.

Although the Marina was (in engineering terms) a fairly nondescript compilation of leftover Leyland parts, and pretty crude in comparison to many of its peers (but not all, Vauxhall and Chrysler/Hillman produced some equally basic cars at about the same time), it is now, just an 'old car'. Probably no worse than an early MGB to drive, although a lot less glamorous.

My point is, there are much worse 'old cars' to drive than the Marina. They are probably just a lot older and almost certainly much more interesting to look at.

So if you can get past the looks and the plethora of better cars from the same era, it is still just as capable of showing those

• "very discernible limits in terms of performance, handling, braking etc"

... and requiring ...

• "so much more attention, foresight, planning and (dare I say) skill" to get from a to b,
  

that make driving old cars such an interesting and (for me) 'other-world' experience.

It also carries that totally 70s vinyl smell, which transports me back to some of the better aspects being a teenager.

So in the context of all that, stick with me and I will briefly list the other good points in no particular order:

1. No one steals them. There is simply (a) no value and (b) huge potential negative kudos even for a joyrider
2. They are quite comfortable - at least for little old 6'4" me - and the driving position is quite good
   
3. Other drivers are extremely civil - they must either assume I am about 89 years old, or they just feel sorry for me
4. Their handling is extremely predictable (I did not say good, just consistent)
   
5. Mine (1.75 litre manual) is fun to drive in the hills, reasonably responsive and very tactile (as long as the road and the windscreen are dry)
   
6. Not very fast, very ordinary handling, poor headlights and brakes - so you don't tend to go very fast - THEREFORE you are less likely to get caught speeding
   
7. They are extremely simple to work on - 4 cyl, one carbie, plenty of cheap parts
8. Extremely cheap to buy - if you stand still for long enough and look interested, someone might just give you one
9. Most of the petrol stays in the tank on very hot days
10. They are most certainly not dull to drive. Even before you get in, you tend to be gearing up for adventure and uncertainty
    

So - there you have it - bet you thought I would not get to 10. I'm a bit surprised myself.

Caution - Marina - Do not drive in the wet

Well, lots of people describe their classics as never having been driven in the rain and I always thought it was because they pampered their cars.

Not so sure now, having just driven the green beast the 60km from my house to Melbourne's Tullamarine Airport at 5 am. Heavy rain (hail for 10 minutes) made the journey interesting to say the least.

It is mostly freeway. I don't think I'll be driving the Marina again in heavy rain, hail and dark.

Not till I have fixed:

• Windscreen wipers - the best they seem to do is leave a film of water on the screen at speeds above 70kph, which (in the dark) makes huge starring from lights - means it is hard to see if pppl are braking and very hard to see anything at all much really
• Heater - no heat to screen, only cold air, so when it gets below zero (hail this morning for a while, so it did), the screen mists up instead of clearing. Along with the point above, makes it triple-y harder to see anything at all (frantic wiping / smearing from the inside
• Brakes - As a result of both the above, I noticed very late that the row of huge fuzzy red blobs in front of me was a stationary line of traffic. Had to slam brakes on in the wet and locked up at least one back wheel. Thought I was going to crash. Can breathe again now, thanks to Ventolin

The whole experience reminded me of the terrifying/exciting times I had as a late teenager riding large motorbikes at stupid speeds through the English/Welsh winter rain storms, desperately trying to see through my smeared blurred goggles, but at the same time trying to keep going as quickly as possible in order to minimise the amount of time I would have to spend enduring the fear and discomfort.

If anyone has any smart ideas on fixing either the wipers or the heater - I'm all ears (or should that be eyes?)

Still haven't replaced the busted panel light switch - so driving in the dark means no visible instuments too.

I have a contemporary Australian road test that compared the 6 cyl and 4 cyl Automatic Marina Sedans in the mid 70s. I think they must have got a bit dispirited comparing Marinas with other cars.

Anyhow, they pointed out that the wipers were completely ineffective on both cars at any speed, with some surprise, as they had pointed the same fault out to Leyland a couple of years earlier. They could not understand how something so fundamental, yet simple had not been fixed.

Incidentally, the test seemed to conclude that both cars were extremely average, but the 6 cyl was a bit easier to live with around town...

My Leyland Marina Story

Fond (?) Memories

It is completely irrelevant , but my Dad had a 1.3 litre (I think) Marina van for a while in the late 70s. It was dreadful to drive. At the same time, I had the Morris Minor van, which had done at least 3 million miles and was a good 10 years older - but it drove better than the Marina!

Unexpected Acquisition

My car is a 1,750 cc 4cyl marina DL from 1974.

For those of you not familiar with the Australian-built Leyland Marina, in Oz the Marina had either a 1.5 or 1.75 litre 4 cyl or a 2.65 litre 6cyl engine (all OHC). This was because the tooling for the B series engine had worn out, so they tooled up for the new E series engine (seen in the UK in the front-wheel drive Austin Allegro and Austin Maxi) but applied as a rear wheel drive in the Australian Marina. They added 2 more cylinders to make the 6 cyl engine.

Incidentally, the manual version of the 6 cyl Marina was only a 3-speed, because they couldn't fit a 4-speed box in. The 6 cyl e-series also found a place in the Leyland P76, which also came with a locally modified 4.4 litre version of the Rover V8 engine.

Even more incidentally, Leyland Australia also developed a 2.2 litre 6 cylinder version of the 'E' series engine for the car before the P76, which was called either an Austin Kimberly, or and Austin Tasman (different trim levels) see picture borrowed from Wikepedia. This car was based on the Austin 1800, but squared off front and rear. Unlike the P76, the Kimberly/Tasman was a transverse engined front-wheel driver. This engine/transmission combination made it back to the UK as the Wolsley/Austin/Morris 2200, and later into the Austin Princess. I have to admit, I quite like the Kimberly - especially given that I did have an Austin 1800 almost 30 years ago. Wonder how to pursuade my wife...

Mine was bought new in Wagga Wagga (New South Wales) by a friend's father. (It isn't left hand drive - I took this picture with my laptop, which mirrors photos for some reason).

He cherished it for 34 years, driving about 5,000 km a year in it, and never over 80kmh (which is maybe how he never noticed out out of balance the front wheels were!). I saw the car twice in about 2005 and again in 2006. After he passed away, his widow simply never got round to selling it - and when I realised, I offered to buy it for $600 - which was accepted. I think they were relieved someone actually wanted it. Can't say the same for my wife, who was astonished when I said I'd buy it. I think I was a bit too.

Some time later (June 2008) I took the train from Melbourne to Wagga Wagga, handed over the money and took possession. That is when I took the photo above. The green shade cloth on the grill was to stop locusts from being sucked into the cabin through the ventilation vents!

At that point it had done 169,000 kms. I have the record of every purchase (including petrol) and every service for the whole of this period.

Driving Home

The first thing that flummoxed me was the ignition key socket. Couldn't find it after so many years of driving modern cars. Had to ask. There it was, on the other (wrong) side of the steering column, completely hidden from my view.

Off I intrepidly set on the 500km trip home. Wouldn't go into second to start with, but eventually that wore off and the gears selected fine. I stopped twice on the way home, once for petrol and once for a cup of tea and some air that didn't smell of petrol.

Drove at an indicated 100 - 120 kmh most of the way - can't be any more precise because the speedo needle was bouncing between the two. Might have hit 140kph a couple of times, just to see what happened. Above 80kph, the front wheels took on a life of their own and the steering could only be managed with a very light grip, as the wheel was wobbling and juddering so much.

On top of that, in anything remotely resembling a cross-wind, the car started to float like barge. Great fun - I thoroughly enjoyed the drive (about 6.5 hours), the heady aroma of 70s vinyl and fairly surreal experience of driving such a time-warp car. I'm sure I was a teenager again for at least half of the journey.

Very pleased with myself when I eventually pulled in to my garage and switched off the engine.


Shed Time

Over the next few weeks, I took it out at the weekends (still on NSW rego). Established that the wheels needed balancing, the badly chipped windscreen needed replacing, it needed new tyres (they were perished, rather than worn!) and there was a hole somewhere in the exhaust.

I had the tyres fitted, new window winder handles in the front - they had both broken, and found a new windscreen and second-hand rubber seal. (Took me 2 days to clean up the seal) Also had a second-hand diff fitted as the old one was a roadworthy liability and whining a lot.

Various other commitments took priority, until simultaneously, my normal car lease came up for re-financing, we had a recession, which led to me taking a temporary pay cut - and I (think I) moved gracefully into a mild mid-life crisis.


Back on the Road

I sold my Nissan Maxima to avoid having to refinance - and at the same time I roadworthied and registered the Marina. By this time (Jan/Feb 2009) with all the bits and the stupidly high cost of registration, I probably spent another $1,500 on the car. After I started it driving again, I had the wheels balanced. The result was not perfect, but what a difference. Relatively smooth cruising up to 100kmh. Great for my weekly round trip to the Airport (60 km each way).

Later I remembered that one of the front wheels was slightly bent, so swapped it for the spare. Now the only vibe is (probably) drive line and it only really kicks in for a patch at around 110kmh.

Because I wasn't comfortable with having only one ancient car and no back-up (if you have read this far, you will know exactly what I mean) and because I still remembered my Rovers (P6 and P4) very fondly, I contacted the local Rover club to find a cheap, but serviceable P5.

They were really helpful and one hot Saturday (now known as Black Saturday) I drove the Marina to Dromana (down the Mornington Peninsula) to look at the P5 I had been pointed to. Much more about the Rover in another post, but the point is, the marina did the journey in good time, in blistering heat and heavy crosswinds.

As I drove home, with a towel between me and the boiling hot vinyl seats in about 48'C, with strong winds blowing the car all over the place, I had no idea of the massive tragedy that was unfolding just up the valley from my house. The Marina has never had a radio.

I got out the car bedraggled and saturated - but the car was fine, although towards the end of the journey (mostly freeway, for about an hour and 10 minutes) the temperature gauge was beginning to move fully into the 'hot' section.

Since January, I have done around 4,000 kms in it. Problems and solutions encountered so far:

• Cracked windscreen - replaced with new windscreen and second-hand rubber seal
• Windscreen guy couldn't get the chrome trim back on - blamed the second-hand seal - resolved by putting chrome trim in the boot and ignoring it
• Whining (roaring?) diff - resolved by replacing entire back axle with second hand one. Also (as a by-product) fixed the binding rear brakes, because the replacement axle had the drums still attached.
  
• Major shakes/vibration at over 80kmh - resolved by balancing wheels and swapping bent front wheel with spare
• Choking petrol fumes in car at inconsistent times (wife, my mum and kids all complained) resolved by replacing fuel filler cap - the cork seal had disappeared and the fumes were being sucked into the cabin from air swirl at the back of the car via the C pillar vents
• Banging front suspension - in fact it is pretty useless - not yet resolved, but an inspections shows the rubber bump-stops are a bit out of shape
• Windscreen wipers barely touch the windscreen - not yet resolved
• Juddering clutch, occasionally refusal to engage first gear, and then complete clutch failure - resolved by bleeding and topping up the hydraulic clutch system - clutch now works much better
• Slight use of Engine oil - resolved (occasionally) by topping up oil
• Innocuous appearance of car - very slightly resolved by painting the wheels black - see pic (and parts of the tyres, accidentally - but it soon flaked off)
• 
• Dash back-light switch has disintegrated - not yet resolved
• Headlamps very dim - not resolved - apparently this is a safety feature to stop drivers speeding at night

How it all began

A brief history of my history of Vehicles - by way of context and background

So - I left school in 1979, in the UK. Available funds were very limited, and my succession of rides include:

• Morris Minor Panel Van - more rust and holes than tin
• Austin 1800 - great car, but not compatible with my foolish teenage driving style
• Honda CB200 (running a car proved too expensive)
  
• Kawasaki Z750 (CB 200 a bit to slow and small - I am 6'4'', so it was a bit uncomfortable)
  
• Norton Commando MkIII (ex police) - Engine exploded when I hit a brick mid corner
  
• Bedford Beagle Van (based on Mk1 Vauxhall Viva) - I drove this car from London to Athens, then ferried across the Mediteranean to Israel for 1.5 yers on a kibbutz. The car, which lasted about 6 months in Israel, only cost me £100
• Honda 750K2 (Back in the UK now) - some time in 1982
• Honda c90 Stepthru (for when I had the 750 in bits)
• Honda CX500 (got nicked) now at Uni - around 1984
• Suzuki GT500 (eventually disintegrated - although it worked quite well as a 250 single for a while, as long as you didn't mid getting petrol all over your left foot)
• Hilman Superminx (1964 model - also eventually disintegrated - student funds not compatible with running wheels) This was my last student vehicle
  
• Rover 3500s (manual P6) - now 1988. Was a bit clapped out - Good trips to France - was like no car I'd ever had before
  

All of the above cost between £50 and £600 each

• Rover 110 (P4 overdrive model) Huge fun, - but eventually the lovely English winter weather ate it
  
• Various sales rep cars, including: Citroen BX19, at least 3 Vauxhall Cavaliers, BMW 520, Ford Probe and a Peugeot 405

Then I emigrated to Australia (1995) - by this time married for 4 years with a 6 month-old baby

• EB Ford Fairmont
  
• Knackered VC Commodore Wagon, which smelt of wet dogs (had to sell Ford to buy a house)
• In succession over 12 years, Two sensible Mitsubishi Magna Station wagons and a Nissan Maxima (all new or almost)

So, at the tender age of almost 48, with two school-age kids and the usual Mortgage, 2 family cars, sport and school fees, desk job and intense work-related stresses, I do the right and proper thing and have a mild mid-life crisis

The result?

• Decided not have any more new or boring cars, with pointless features like reliability and air conditioning
  
• Sold the Maxima at 5 years old
• Roadworthied the Fabulous Leyland Marina
  
• Bought the Rover P5 - a 1963 series II 3-litre
• Still happily married, still got the kids and mortgage and bills - so as mid-life crises go, I think the fall-out was relatively minor. My wife still has the family people-mover, so she maintains a reasonable level of tolerance...
  

I now have the Marina and the Rover sharing the task of daily driving in and around Melbourne.

Future posts will (I hope) tell of my life with both cars and some of my past experiences with the others.